Fish and Milk, and Maris Ayin in Basar B'Chalav

Fish and Milk So far, we have seen that the prohibition of basar b’chalav includes cooking milk and meat together. Is there any problem of cooking milk and fish together? The משנה חולין (קג:) teaches that cooking fish and milk together is permitted because fish is not considered “basar” (see Rashi קד. ד״ה מותר). The גמרא חולין (קיא:) (17) quotes a dispute whether fish that was cooked in a fleishig pan may be eaten with dairy, implying that if it was cooked in a dairy pan, it may certainly be eaten with dairy. Based on the above, the בית יוסף (כאן) (18) quotes the רמב״ם, רשב״א ור״ן who all passkin that you are allowed to eat fish and dairy together. However, the בית יוסף concludes that it is best not to eat them together because of ״סכנה״ – danger. The דרכי משה comments that he never heard of anyone being careful not to eat fish and milk, so there must be a typo in the בית יוסף, who meant to say that you should not eat fish and meat together because of סכנה (as the S”A passkins in קטז-ב). The S”A in סעיף ג׳ passkins that one is allowed to cook and eat fish and milk together and makes no mention of סכנה. However, the פת״ש (ט) quotes the לבוש and others who forbid, explaining that the S”A did not mention it because he was only addressing the strict halacha, not סכנה. But in truth, one may not eat fish and dairy together due to סכנה. On the other hand, frying fish with butter is permitted, since this has been proven not to be dangerous. The פת״ש concludes against the לבוש that one is allowed to cook and eat fish and milk together without concern. Lema’ase, nearly all Ashkenazi posskim allow eating fish and milk together. Regarding the Sephardi poskim, there seems to be a 3-way dispute: The חיד״א in מחזיק ברכה (פז-ד) passkins like the Ashkenazim that it is completely permitted. The majority of Sephardic posskim forbid cooking fish with milk or cheese but permit cooking fish with butter; see ילקוט יוסף (פז:פד-פו) (19). In their opinion, a restaurant that sells fish and milk dishes (e.g., creamy pasta and salmon dishes) should hang a sign that such foods may not be eaten by Sephardim. The בן איש חי (בהעלותך שנה ב׳-טו) passkins that even fish and butter together prohibited. Rav Ovadya in יחוה דעת (ח״ו-מח) passkins that each person should follow their family’s minhag. The ילקוט יוסף adds that even according to those who have the custom to be stringent, if one accidentally cooked fish with milk, he may eat it (since many posskim hold there is no danger involved). Maris Ayin - The Sugya In this section, we will learn the halachos of maris ayin – the prohibition against performing an act that is technically permitted but others might think is problematic, specifically as it pertains to basar b’chalav. For example, are you allowed to eat a meat burger with soy cheese melted on top? Are you allowed to have parve ice cream for desert after a fleishig meal? Can you partake in a business lunch that takes place in a non-kosher restaurant and only order a kosher drink? What if you do not order anything? In this section, we will start by learning the sources from the Gemara, the S”A, and the commentaries on the S”A, and in the next section we will apply what we learned to prevalent modern-day scenarios. We will first learn three main opinions regarding whether there is a prohibition of maris ayin when it looks like you are eating meat and milk and then three opinions whether there is a prohibition of maris ayin when it looks like you are cooking meat and milk. I. Maris ayin on eating what looks like basar b’chalav The גמרא כריתות (כא:) (20) teaches that although there is no prohibition of drinking fish blood, you are not allowed to collect fish blood in a cup and drink it because it looks like you are drinking animal blood, which violates the prohibition of maris ayin. However, if you place fish scales in the cup, you are allowed to drink it because anyone who sees it will understand that the blood in the cup is from a fish (see S”A סו-ט). Based on this, the Rama in סעיף ג׳ passkins that if you wish to eat meat that was cooked with almond milk, you must place almonds around the bowl (as a heker – a sign) so people know that the milk is almond milk. Otherwise, eating it is prohibited because of maris ayin. However, the Rama passkins that you only need to place a heker if it looks like you are transgressing a biblical prohibition (e.g., meat in almond milk soup). But if people will only suspect you of transgressing a rabbinic prohibition (e.g., chicken in almond milk soup), a heker is not needed. The ש״ך (ו) adds that according to the Rama, you would only need a heker when the meat and almond milk are cooked together. But if the almond milk was mixed with meat in a כלי שני, or you eat a cold salami sandwich with vegan cheese, or even vanilla parve ice cream after a meat meal, no heker is required because even if real milk/cheese were used, only a rabbinic prohibition of basar b’chalav would be violated. After discussing the opinion of the Rama, the ש״ך (ו) then quotes the מהרש״ל and passkins in accordance with his opinion that even for rabbinic violations, such as chicken with almond milk, a heker is needed. The ש״ך brings a proof from the גמרא שבת (נד:) which forbids taking your cow out with a bell on Shabbos because people might think that you are going to sell the cow (and selling on Shabbos is only rabbinically prohibited). The פת״ש (י) quotes what he wrote in his sefer נחלת צבי that the מהרש״ל and the Rama do not argue. They both agree that in a public area, even a maris ayin on a rabbinic prohibition needs a heker, but in the privacy of your own home, a heker is not needed. The כרתי ופלתי (פז-ז) (21) is even more lenient than the Rama and theoretically permits almond milk and meat without a heker. He explains that there is only an issue of maris ayin regarding milk and meat in the case of real milk, such as mother’s milk. Similarly, there is only a prohibition of maris ayin regarding blood in the case of real blood (i.e., fish blood). However, there is no prohibition of maris ayin regarding almond milk and meat because almond milk is really just juice and is only called “milk” because of its appearance. Similarly, there is no prohibition to marinate meat in red wine that looks like blood, (or drink water with red food coloring) because the prohibition of maris ayin applies only to foods that contain real blood. However, the כרתי ופלתי concludes that nonetheless, practically we should not be more lenient than the Rama. To summarize, there are three main opinions regarding maris ayin for eating something that appears to be basar b’chalav. 1) Rama – only need a heker if it looks like you are violating a biblical prohibition. 2) מהרש״ל – need a heker even when it looks like you are violating a rabbinic prohibition. 3) פת״ש – Everyone agrees that in public you need a heker even for what looks like a rabbinic prohibition and in private only for what looks like a biblical prohibition. II. Maris ayin on what looks like cooking basar b’chalav We will now discuss maris ayin with regard to cooking basar b’chalav. The S”A in סעיף ד׳ passkins based on the רשב״א that you are not allowed to cook a mother’s milk with meat because of maris ayin, but if the mother’s milk falls into meat, it is batel and permitted to eat. (The בדי השלחן (נד) writes that it is permitted as long as the milk is not noticeable). The Rama adds that based on this halacha, it would also be forbidden to cook pork with milk or beef with camel milk because of maris ayin, but cooking chicken and camel milk or chicken with almond milk is permitted. The פמ״ג (משב״ז-ה) explains that cooking chicken and milk would still be prohibited because it looks like meat and milk, but cooking chicken in camel milk (or chicken with almond milk) is allowed because we are not worried one will make two mistakes: 1) mixing up chicken and meat, 2) mixing up camel milk and kosher milk. The ש״ך (ז) asks, why does the S”A only forbid cooking mother’s milk and beef because of maris ayin, while as we saw previously, in סעיף ג׳ he passkins explicitly that cooking pork and milk is permitted? Shouldn’t that also be forbidden lest people think he is cooking meat and milk? We will learn three possible answers to this question. The ש״ך’s first answer is that the S”A really forbids cooking pork and milk because of maris ayin (as the Rama writes), but he did not mention it in סעיף ג׳ because there he was teaching only the letter of the law concerning basar b’chalav, which biblically permits cooking non-kosher meat and milk, while in סעיף ד׳ he added that there is still a prohibition of maris ayin. The ש״ך’s second answer is that according to the S”A, the prohibition of maris ayin applies only when eating something that looks like meat and milk, but there is never a prohibition of maris ayin when cooking something that looks like meat and milk. When the S”A writes ״אסור לבשל בחלב אישה״ – he means you are not allowed to eat it (just as the word ״בישול״ in the verse ״לא תבשל גדי״ means eating), but there is never maris ayin on cooking. Therefore, you would not need a heker when cooking mother’s milk with meat or meat with almond milk. The ש״ך writes that this is the primary answer. The ט״ז (ה) writes that the prohibition of maris ayin applies only when both ingredients are permitted on their own (i.e., mother’s milk and kosher meat), similar to the prohibition of meat and milk, where each one is independently permitted. But if one ingredient is forbidden on its own (e.g., pork and milk), there is no added prohibition of maris ayin when cooking it. To summarize, regarding what looks like cooking meat and milk, the Rama (and the S”A, according to the first answer of ש״ך) passkins that there is a problem of maris ayin when cooking pork and milk, beef with camel milk, mother’s milk with meat, and even chicken and milk (since it looks like you are cooking basar b’chalav). According to the ש״ך’s second explanation, the S”A passkins that there is never a prohibition of maris ayin regarding cooking. According to the ט״ז and the simple reading of the S”A, only cooking mother’s milk and meat is forbidden because of maris ayin, but cooking non-kosher meat with milk or non-kosher milk with meat is allowed (since according to the ט״ז, there is no issue of maris ayin when one of the ingredients is prohibited on its own itself). We mentioned earlier that a Jewish businessman who attends a company BBQ and is asked to place cheese on top of pork burgers does not violate the biblical prohibition of cooking meat and milk since the meat is pork. However, is there a problem of maris ayin? The Rama would forbid, but the ש״ך in his second answer (that there is never maris ayin concerning cooking) and the ט״ז (who holds that both ingredients need to be permitted for there to be a violation of maris ayin) would permit. To review, there are three opinions regarding maris ayin as it pertains to eating and three opinions as it pertains to cooking. Maris ayin for eating: Rama – Only maris ayin on what looks like a biblical prohibition needs a heker. מהרש״ל – Maris ayin on what looks like either a biblical or rabbinic prohibition needs a heker. פת״ש – Maris ayin in public always needs a heker (even on what looks like a rabbinic prohibition), but maris ayin in private only need a heker on what looks like a biblical prohibition. Maris ayin on cooking: Rama (and S”A according to ש״ך’s first explanation) – Maris ayin on what looks like cooking meat and milk is prohibited (unless there is a heker). Therefore, cooking pork and milk is forbidden (and the only exception is when cooking chicken and almond milk, where there are 2 factors for leniency). ש״ך’s second answer according to S”A – never need a heker when cooking. ט״ז’s understanding of S”A – Maris ayin concerning cooking is forbidden only if both components are inherently permitted. Cooking non-kosher milk with meat and vice versa Cooking mother’s/soy milk and meat Eating visible mother’s milk/soy milk with meat Eating mother’s milk/soy milk with chicken Rama Prohibited Prohibited Prohibited (if the milk is not visible or there is a heker, it is permitted) Permitted even without a heker ש"ך’s explanation of S”A #1 Prohibited Prohibited Prohibited (if the milk is not visible or there is a heker, it is permitted) N/A ש"ך’s explanation of S”A #2 Permitted Permitted Prohibited (if the milk is not visible or there is a heker, it is permitted) N/A Simple reading of S”A (as explained by ט״ז) Permitted Prohibited (because both components are permitted onto themselves) Prohibited, because similar to basar b’chalav where each component is permitted (if the milk is not visible, it is permitted) N/A מהרש״ל Prohibited Prohibited Prohibited (unless there is a heker) Prohibited (unless there is a heker) כרתי ופלתי Mother’s milk- prohibited because it is actual milk. Soy milk permitted (even without heker) because it isn’t milk. Lema’ase-need to be stringent even for soy milk. Soy milk with chicken is permitted because “soy” isn’t milk. Mother’s milk is permitted like Rama. Maris Ayin - Practical Applications In this section we will apply what we learned in the previous section to common modern-day situations. Lema’ase, most posskim try to be stringent like the מהרש״ל and avoid maris ayin both for cooking and eating and both by potential biblical prohibitions and rabbinic ones. However, even according to this stringent opinion, there might be other reasons to permit, especially in conjunction with the other more lenient opinions. Well-known products Today, there are numerous pareve products that resemble dairy or meat that everyone is familiar with, such as parve ice cream, soy milk, cream and the like. Rav Ovadia Yosef in יביע אומר (ח"ו יו"ד ח, יחוה דעת ג-נט) and the ספר הכשרות (י-מא), among others, write that these products are permitted to eat or cook with dairy or meat since everyone knows that they are commonly used, so there is no longer any issue of maris ayin that one is cooking or eating basar b’chalav. See below, where we will discuss the source for this idea. Burgers with vegan cheese – Restaurants We already discussed maris ayin concerning pareve products that are well-known. But is there a problem of maris ayin concerning lesser-known products that appear to be meat or dairy? For example, Impossible burgers are plant-based burgers that look and taste like real meat. Assuming they are not that well known, are you allowed to cook them with cheese? Similarly, are you allowed to place vegan cheese on a burger that you are grilling? Regarding cooking this meat and cheese in the comfort of your home, the Rama would passkin that you need a heker (since it is a maris ayin on a biblical prohibition), the ש״ך’s second answer would permit (because there is no maris ayin on cooking) and the ט״ז would forbid unless there is a heker (because both ingredients are inherently permitted). Regarding the eating, everyone would agree you need a heker (even in your home) because it is a maris ayin on a biblical prohibition. Lema’ase, if you wish to make cheeseburgers in your home with vegan cheese or Impossible burgers with real cheese, you need a heker both for the cooking and eating. If so, why are there many kosher restaurants with vegan cheeseburgers, such as the kosher McDonalds and Crave in Jerusalem, that do not have an obvious heker in the kitchen or on the table? How do these stores receive a hechsher? We will learn three possible reasons why these restaurants can get a hechsher, two from Rav Belsky and one from Rav Abadi. Rav Belsky in שלחן הלוי (ח״א-פכ״ב-ט) (22) passkins that as long as the restaurant writes on the menu that the cheese is vegan, there is no issue of maris ayin. He explains that writing this on the menu is better than placing almonds next to almond milk because the almonds are not always clearly visible. Even when they are, a passerby might not make the connection that the almonds are signaling that the milk is almond milk – maybe they were just added for the crunch. However, the moment you write “parve cheese” on the menu, there is no greater heker than that. Rav Belsky adds that although the almonds in the case of the Rama are placed when you are eating the soup, while in the restaurant they take away the menu the moment you are done ordering and the food is served without any heker present, it is still permitted. The reason is that it becomes well known that the restaurant uses vegan cheese, and there is no issue of maris ayin once it is well-known (as we mentioned above). Therefore, even ordering by phone or online without seeing the menu is permitted because it is well-known to all that the cheese in the store is vegan. Rav Abadi (23) in אור יצחק (ח״ב יו״ד-ד) adds a third reason to allow restaurants to serve cheeseburgers with vegan cheese. He explains that maris ayin in public is forbidden when one individual performs an act that appears forbidden, but if an entire group of people is eating something that looks prohibited (e.g., in a restaurant that serves vegan cheeseburgers), a heker is not needed because no one would suspect that such a large group of people would openly violate halacha, especially when you can easily enter the store and check to see whether they are serving vegan cheese or not. Thus, there are three reasons why kosher restaurants can receive a hechsher to serve vegan cheeseburgers: 1) Writing “vegan” on the menu is enough of a heker. 2) It is well-known that there are a variety of vegan cheeses served at this restaurant. 3) When a large group of people publicly perform an act that appears forbidden and it can be easily clarified whether they are violating a prohibition, there is no prohibition of maris ayin. Buying a drink at a rest stop or the airport Are you allowed to enter a non-kosher restaurant at a rest stop or in an airport to buy a kosher drink or packaged snack? Ha’Gaon Rav Schachter (24) shlit”a passkins that a mashgiach who is traveling late at night and is worried that he might fall asleep is permitted to buy a kosher drink from a McDonalds and even a coffee. He explains that today it is well known that people enter a McDonalds to use the restroom or buy a Coke; therefore, there is no issue of maris ayin. Purchasing a plain coffee is also allowed even if the coffee comes out of the same spout in the machine as the non-kosher coffee because the small amount of non-kosher coffee will be batel to the kosher coffee. This idea that there is no issue of מראית עין in a case that is well known to all is found in the S”A יו״ד (רחצ) (25), who passkins that Chazal initially forbade sewing wool and silk together because silk is similar to linen, but after silk became popular, it was no longer prohibited. In other words, if something becomes well known and common, there is no issue of maris ayin even if it appears similar to a case that is prohibited. The אבני דרך (ח״ז-קכה) (26) quotes many acharonim, including Rav Moshe, who passkin that when something becomes well known, there is no longer an issue of maris ayin. Business meeting in a non-kosher restaurant Are you allowed to have a business meeting in a non-kosher restaurant? It would seem that since this is a case of maris ayin concerning a biblical prohibition, it should be prohibited. Rav Moshe (27) in אגרו״מ (או״ח ח״ב-מ) passkins that one may not eat in a restaurant without a hechsher, even if he makes sure to eat only kosher food, because there are many other kashrus issues that arise, such as non-kosher oil, vinegar and bishul akum (for the same reason, one should also not eat in a vegan restaurant). Additionally, entering such a restaurant and purchasing food that is clearly kosher (e.g., a cold salad with no lettuce or dressing) is also forbidden because of maris ayin. However, if there is no other place to eat and you are starving and in distress (mitzta’er), you are allowed to enter to purchase kosher food because Chazal did not enact the prohibition of maris ayin in cases of distress. He qualifies that if there are Jews around, you should tell them before entering the restaurant that you are in distress and only plan to buy kosher food. What emerges from here is that according to Rav Moshe, going to a business meeting in a case where there is no element of “distress” is prohibited. However, Rav Asher Weiss in מנחת אשר (ח״א-סז) (28) is lenient and passkins based on what we learned above that when a phenomenon becomes well-known, the prohibition of maris ayin no longer exists. Therefore, you are allowed to attend a business meeting at a non-kosher restaurant because today everyone knows that you do not plan to eat there. This is also the pssak of Ha’Gaon Rav Neventzal shlit”a in מציון תצא תורה (ח,א-קסח). Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky in אמת ליעקב (חו״מ תכה הע׳ 27) (29) also passkins that you are allowed to set up a meeting in a non-kosher restaurant because everyone knows that you can order a kosher drink there. Moreover, it might even be a kiddush Hashem to attend the meeting and not order any food. This seems to be the common custom today.